Comments:

Ang - 2004-08-13 11:46:27
You dont have to defend yourself. I didnt mean for that quote to come out as harsh, if thats the way you interpreted it. It just seemed thats the situation that you are in. You are hoping that Justin may change into the husband that you want him to, and that may never happen. Only you know what Justin is capable of doing. You have to make the decision. Whatever decision you make I am here for you. Please give me a call so I can from you personally that things are alright with you. I worry about you chica, and support what decision you make. Thats what friends do.
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Frequent Reader - 2004-08-13 13:18:33
Reading your recent posts, and the replies and having read some of the history, and on top of it all, being someone who is completely removed from your personal life and has absolutely nothing to gain from any choice you make let me give you some advice, take it as you will. In life thier is very little you have absolute control over. Some people chose to worry about those things they can control, and as a result place an expectation on themselves based on what they believe should occur, based on that worry. When its all said and done, no one will have the intimate knowledge of the ins and outs of the matter except you and your spouse, and all though the best intentions maybe in place, no one can be objective, because all the facts arent present. So to the original theme, you have absolute control over yourself and you are absolutely responsible for your choices and decisions. If you have made up your mind, act. If you havent, its not a crime to continue to exhaust avenues of rationaizations to get to a place within yourself that your able to have solace in a decision made. The theme's of your marital posts havent changed much, they are redundant. It seems clear the issues present arent being resolved, the only questions left seem to be have you had enough input yet to assume control over yourself and act, or is their something else left to cover?
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Marsh - 2004-08-13 15:27:49
Hey Ro- I think Frequent Reader is right on the money. Sometimes it is hard to stand on those cornerstones, but thinking well of self and stewardship of self seem in order. And just because you make a choice doesn't mean you can't make another at another time. I think you are very courageous.
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Rowan - 2004-08-13 16:50:05
Thank you, Frequent Reader, and Marsh.
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Roxy - 2004-08-13 17:04:12
I don't think there is anything courageous in the situation at all, honestly. I would label working through the situation slowly and painfully courageous, not throwing in the towel and moving on because it is too difficult, not what one expected, or whatever else other rationalizations there are to do so. I will love you always, whether your tolerance for me as a friend dissipates in your uncertainty and insecurity or not.

And your shower-thoughts seem right on the money, IMHO. I know myself quite well, thank you very much. I don't rationalize my faults away or try to ignore them and pretend they are not there, I accept them as part of me and live as best I can, trying to fulfill myself positively without hurting others needlessly.
I thought you knew yourself quite well, and when you are focused at Diana's Grove I'd say you have an almost complete grasp of yourself and of your reality, but then outside of DG I get this twisted image/view and am left to wonder which is real, the firm grasp on reality or the illusions of what you want reality to be. I thought you had a firm grip on reality when you married J. Yet now it seems as if some romantic illusions you had were sundered. So I'm left wondering which is real, and where the responsibiliy for your present woes lies, and what you can do to create something positive from the situation, rather than something negative, all from my devil's advocate, "objective as possible" empathetic-not-sympathetic perspective. The difference between sympathy and empathy, as I understand it, is faint but all important. Maybe you're expecting sympathy from me, but all I'm offering is empathy. Who knows. Make of this what you will. I only share my thoughts with you so you can consider their worthiness as you see yourself and situation, not as some outside force imposed upon you. I will not apologize for my thoughts on the subject because you cannot consider the thought that your rationalizations, reasons, motivations and intentions might be subject to human frailties and faults, that may tarnish your 'well meant' hopes, that you may be only considering your self interests at the expense of others (as you yourself pointed out a few posts ago).
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Rowan - 2004-08-13 17:23:27
I wish that your opinions did not matter to me as much as they do, because arguing with you is the last thing I need right now. "I will not apologize for my thoughts on the subject because you cannot consider the thought that your rationalizations, reasons, motivations and intentions might be subject to human frailties and faults, that may tarnish your 'well meant' hopes, that you may be only considering your self interests at the expense of others (as you yourself pointed out a few posts ago)." Thank you for showing me just how little you think of me and how little you pay attention to what I need from you as my friend. Being that you are an outsider to my life, and don't live inside my home or my head, I don't think you really have the objectivity to say whether or not I have considered that my motivations might be faulty. I have, but you don't listen enough to know that. And I never asked you to apologize because your thoughts might impose on my "reality", as you have deigned to put it from your lofty, higher-than-thou perspective. If I were you, Roxanne, I would watch how far I try to cast stones from inside my glass house. I seem to remember many times where you were motivated by your own self interest, IMHO, and stepped all over others to get what you wanted at the time...oh, lets call him by David N.C. But that is not the point. I think that I told you how I felt about how you treated him at the time, but I don't think that I put it in such a degrading way. That is where my problem with your statements lies- opinions with no caring. I never asked you to apologize, but *this* is why I feel one of my *friends* would take the time to do just that- because you have stopped listening to me, just like you have stopped listening to all the others that you have done this crap to in the past. You get up on your high horse where, from your lofty position of being able to see "clearly", you lose out on actually hearing what other people are saying, how they are feeling, what they are truly asking for. Who do you think you are to judge me, to say that you know whether or not I acting out of self interest or not? Really, did I miss the part where someone elected you to be the judge and jury? I think that if anyone could decide if I was acting in such a way, it would be Justin himself, who sees my point in all of this. Funny how that works. Thank you for trying to help, but all you have done is hurt me. I now understand how you work, though. If you need to be "right" , I guess everyone else has to be wrong.
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Rowan - 2004-08-13 17:32:26
And btw, Marsh has talked with me extensively while I have mused about whether or not I am just being selfish and naive. I can talk to her about these things, because she listens. So I think she would have a better grasp of who I am right now and what I am going through, what I am thinking about in regards to my situation and what I plan to do about it. She has tried to help me see solutions in staying and solutions in going, for all I am trying to do is figure out what is truly best. And I do think that it is courageous to stick things out and work on them. That is what I have been doing, and you would know that if you were to ask. So yes, I am being courageous.
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Frequent Reader - 2004-08-13 21:23:41
Courage is a funny concept isnt it? Is it couragous to solicit others for input on a matter, that, they dont have all the details on? Or is it cowardice to act with self resolve? No offense intended, but when this is all done, this person "Roxy" and your spouse "J" wont live in your skin Rowan. As I mentioned the themes in your marital posts are redundant, they havent changed in months, only by happenstance. Ever hear of the term "its time to fish or cut bait"? You seem to be standing on the shore of the lake, holding the worm right above the hook and hoping that someone comes along to tell you if its moral (for lack of a better term) to do either, when, no matter how much pain you go through, within your social circle of friends, you have to decide to place the worm on the hook and cast, or walk away. You will own it, this will always be your cross to bare, and you will always be judged by your actions by people in your life, thats just how people are, when though do you get to the point of making the decision to live with your choice? No matter what it is?
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Liza - 2004-08-14 05:56:58
I agree with your mother. I do agree that trying to make things work is neccessary. But I also believe in cutting your losses before you spend twenty years wishing you had and regretting you didn't.
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Rowan - 2004-08-14 09:38:55
Is it couragous to solicit others for input on a matter, that, they dont have all the details on? Yes, I have solicited for advice before, in past emails. I re-read both of these posts, and there was no solicitation, just me venting. And no, I don't suppose soliciting for advice is courageous, but I don't think it cowardly either. Cowardly behavior, in my mind, is not knowing what to do, not admitting it, and just going along with the program set in front you. Just for clarification, when I write in my diary, unless I specifically ask for advice, please do not assume that I am looking for it. Frequent Reader, you made a great point, one that I am thinking on.
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liza - 2004-08-14 13:04:54
*sheepish* sorry to intrude. i glance through occasionally, but nothing regular.
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Rowan - 2004-08-14 17:48:26
Liza, I didn't mean that anyone was intruding. Frequent Reader just made a comment about soliciting for advice, and I had not actually asked for advice in this case. I don't mind unsolicited advice, but I had to correct Frequent Reader in his/her assumption that I had asked for advice.
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Frequent Reader - 2004-08-14 19:52:07
Putting intimate issues in a public diary, that allows public commentary, unsolicited or otherwise is either looking for advice, or looking for confirmation to obtain solace with a predetermined decision. I dont profess to know you or the details of your life, but quibbling over intent of posts seems fruitless. Is it unlogical to assume that placing thoughts and issues on a public forum, isnt intheriently seeking adivice on the topic? I think it wise for me to fade back into the shadows as my intent was never to have a conversation over my posts, but simply give some insight from someone who is compeltely objective, who has nothing to gain, but has read enough of the past posts to have an educated opinion of what you wrote soely. I will leave you with this quote, take from it what ever you want, "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer
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quiet bystander - 2004-08-15 22:36:46
i just wanted to say that you are not alone. and you matter. you're a good person...and i know this, because i know you. if you need me, i'll gladly be here for you.
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Roxy - 2004-08-16 18:49:42
And, just to add to the details, there's a very big difference between marsh's p.o.v. and my p.o.v. isn't there? Differences that, though you think she is the only one that really listens, would definitely explain the differences in what we think on the subject. But, whatever. If you don't want advice, don't take it, from anyone (marsh or me) but figure it out for yourself as you say you want to do.
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